Was Apostle Paul A Polished Speaker?

How much do you know about Apostle Paul of the New Testament?

Many people will agree that he was a man of high intellect, he was knowledgeable, passionate about the course of the gospel, and full of divine revelation.

He knew his way through any kind of argument. As a man highly schooled in Judaism, Paul had a good grasp of law and history as well.

Coupled with the uncommon revelations he received directly from the Lord Jesus Himself, no one could parallel him in the most accurate communication of the gospel of Christ.

It is obvious therefore that there are many fantastic things we can say about Apostle Paul. But was he a polished speaker?

You might think so, but what he said about himself concerning that question may shock you.

You could easily be excused if you pass Apostle Paul as a very eloquent person – a man who is very “fluent or persuasive in speaking or writing.”

That he was very persuasive in his writings is pretty obvious in the way he marshalled his points in the various Epistles penned by him and the many arguments and counter-arguments he had to be engaged in for the advancement of the gospel.

Despite all these, Paul admitted in one of his Epistles that he was not a skilled speaker. Or as he put it, “…I am unskilled in speech…”

But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things (2 Corinthians 11:6).

Although he acknowledged that he is vast and skilled in knowledge, Paul told the Corinthian church that he was “unskilled in speech.”

In other words, you could say Paul meant he was not a polished speaker, a trained orator or a captivating public speaker. Was he just being humble or telling a fact?

What do you think?

©Copyright 2017 | Victor Uyanwanne

134 thoughts on “Was Apostle Paul A Polished Speaker?

  1. dettinger47 06/09/2017 / 7:13 pm

    Good post, Victor. Paul is one of the greatest men who ever lived, but fortunately, he was also very humble. You’re absolutely correct about this verse in that it indicates that Paul’s speaking skills were not on the highest level. True to form, however, in his humility, he did not try to hide that fact. You did a nice job pointing this out.

    Liked by 2 people

    • VictorsCorner 07/09/2017 / 5:29 pm

      Thank you for the comment David. Now I can agree with you that Paul was a humble Apostle.
      But sometimes, this doesn’t come across so easily to the casual observer, especially after such one has read some parts of His (Paul’s) epistles where it sounded like he was somewhat braggadocious.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. J.E.P. 06/09/2017 / 8:12 pm

    Apostle Paul, my favorite study, was a man I admire greatly, a man with a mission that changed the world; he was the worst example of humanity turned best by the hand of God, His HOLY Spirit! Well educated he could hold his own, and did, but I think He excelled in writing, and Christlike thinking… Thanks be to God.

    Liked by 3 people

    • VictorsCorner 07/09/2017 / 6:07 pm

      Apart from Jesus, Apostle Paul is also my favourite N.T. personality. I learn a lot about the principles of Christian living reading any of his epistles.

      As you rightly observed, he excelled immeasurably in writing and that is noteworthy, despite his ‘claim’ of being ‘unskilled in speech’ as discussed in the post.

      Thank you for reading and commending.

      Liked by 1 person

      • J.E.P. 07/09/2017 / 7:00 pm

        Listening right now to a great study called Paul’s Swan Song you might appreciate – Insight.org

        Liked by 3 people

  3. What I like Victor in reference to the Scripture you shared about Paul is when read in context we see a very important Truth, it is not really about how we speak that matters or even write but what is the source of what we share, does it come from God’s Wisdom or from worldly fleshy understanding.

    1Corinthians 2:2-8 And I brethren when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the Testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you save Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of Man’s wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your Faith should not stand in the wisdom of Men but in the Power of God. Howbeit we speak Wisdom among them that are Perfect yet not the wisdom of this world nor of the Princes of this world that come to nought. But we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery even the hidden Wisdom which God ordained before the World unto our glory which none of the Princes of this World knew for had they known it they would not have Crucified the Lord of Glory.(KJV)

    With the Holy Spirit’s confirmation Victor in our hearts having asked and received God’s Wisdom we know what we share is His Truth so we don’t have doubts or need to be convinced and that it is just how Paul was.

    1 Corinthians 2:9-16 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of Man, the things which God hath prepared for them that Love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things yea the deep things of God. For what Man knoweth the things of a Man save the spirit of Man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no Man but the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the World but the Spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak not in the words which Man’s wisdom teacheth but which the Holy Ghost Teacheth, comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural Man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no Man. For who hath known the Mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? but we have the Mind of Christ.(KJV)

    1 John 2:26-28 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you and ye need not that any man teach you but as the same anointing Teacheth you of all things and is Truth and is no lie and even as it hath taught you ye shall abide in Him.(KJV)

    Matthew 10:26-28 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed and hid that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in Light and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops (KJV)

    John 16:13 -15. Howbeit when He The Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all Truth for He shall not speak of Himself but whatsoever He shall hear that shall He speak and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me for He shall receive of mine and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine therefore said I; that He shall take of mine and shall shew it unto you. (KJV)

    Christian Love and Blessings – Anne.

    Liked by 3 people

    • VictorsCorner 07/09/2017 / 5:51 pm

      I agree with you that the scripture in focus contains much spiritual truth than Paul’s eloquence (or lack of it) that was being discussed here. To be honest, it was humbling for me to note in that passage that an erudite scholar like Paul considered himself to be “unskilled in speech.” That was exactly what inspired this post in the first place.

      I appreciate the relevant scriptures you sighted, especially 1Corinthians 2:2-8, part of which will be the basis of the next post sequel to this one.

      Of course I also agree with you that Paul spoke from the wisdom of God which he received from Him, and not from the wisdom of the world. I’m happy I’ve been drinking from the same heavenly source as well.

      Liked by 2 people

  4. Kennedy 10/09/2017 / 9:08 pm

    Funny thing is, people that are not polished at speaking often turn to writing. Something in the art form frees them in the same way that stutterers can often sing song lyrics with amazing clarity.

    Keep writing! 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  5. kertsen 26/09/2017 / 3:11 pm

    I go along with many who think Paul invented his own version of Christianity which does not always tie up with the teachings we have of Jesus Christ. That he was brilliant is indisputable and he was probably a better speaker than many of today’s preachers.
    Christians of course have to show the Bible is a consistent set of divine teachings and Paul was one of the prime movers in this effort.
    To my mind consistency is not a human attribute and we see this in the vast variation of interpretations of scripture.
    I do not blame people for their inconsistency after all circumstances themselves are often utterly unpredictable.

    Liked by 1 person

    • VictorsCorner 26/09/2017 / 3:35 pm

      Everyone agrees that Apostle was a very brilliant man. And it was obvious that he was greatly used of God in his ministry.

      I see him as someone who gave tremendous insight into the teachings and the finished work of Christ. To that extent, I would like to ask, in what way did you think that his teachings contradicted those of Jesus Christ Himself, as you stated?

      Even as Paul was adjudged not to be an eloquent man, I like the twist you added, namely, “he was probably a better speaker than many of today’s preacher.” Great point, thank you for mentioning that!

      For us to be consistent in interpreting the Bible, we should not leave out the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we may be prone to seeing the scriptures through different lenses. Thanks for reading and commenting.

      Like

  6. kertsen 26/09/2017 / 9:32 pm

    Nearly all Christians claim to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit but that does not stop them from coming to different conclusions. The differences between those who agree to be labeled Christian is enormous . From regular church attendees who otherwise lead normal lives to devout followers of Christ who endeavour to walk as he walked. We have those who allow women ministers and single sex marriage and those who abhor such practices. I not judging people are entitled to their viewpoint and they have their reasons.
    I’m a mere layman with no great knowledge and little schooling but I look to the experts in their fields and try to make some sort of conclusions. I use the site called Bible Oddessey which is packed with helpful experts on the Bible and it’s history.
    Paul was preaching salvation by faith but Jesus Christ was preaching about the Kingdom of God and how human beings should behave.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 26/09/2017 / 11:17 pm

      Any body can claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. But only by their fruits are they distinguished one from another.

      God has given us the ministry of teachers to teach us the word. But we can learn directly from Him as well because He has given us the anointing to teach us all things.
      It is always a thing of joy whenever I discover the word of God my myself

      Like

  7. kertsen 27/09/2017 / 8:03 am

    I respect your position and only you know your fruits . It is up to all of us to examine ourselves and see if our lives are a benefit to those around us and that we do not lay the burden of unnecesssary judgement on them. My concern is that those who label themselves as religious do not demand changes in others who see things differently.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 27/09/2017 / 1:23 pm

      I respect your position as well. Well, we must first judge ourselves before we judge others. What’s the use of correcting what we are ourselves are guilty of.
      All the same, we are called to love others as ourselves. If we are gentle with ourselves we should do the same to others. Thank you for the contribution.

      Like

  8. John Arthur 25/09/2019 / 3:12 am

    Wasn’t Paul a delusional psychotic who thought that he had revelations form God?

    Like

  9. VictorsCorner 27/09/2019 / 5:24 am

    No, Paul was neither delusional nor psychotic.

    He was a man filled with revelations from God. It’s only people like you who neither know God nor His power would think otherwise.

    Like

    • John Arthur 30/09/2019 / 11:18 am

      How do you know that his revelations were from God? How do you know that he was not delusional nor psychotic? Anyone can claim that they’ve been to heaven. Anyone can claim that they saw Jesus in a vision, but how do you know that it was not an apparition that Paul thought he saw?

      Like

        • John Arthur 30/09/2019 / 11:41 pm

          In other words, you are admitting that I am right. Thanks for admitting your errors.

          Like

          • VictorsCorner 01/10/2019 / 12:05 am

            Yes, you are right that you don’t believe in Jesus, yet you will never stop talking about Him.

            You are right that God doesn’t exists, but that thought alone continuously gives you countless sleepless nights.

            You are right and you know it: you are deceiving yourself by the things you talk about here.

            Like

            • John Arthur 31/10/2019 / 12:05 am

              “… you don’t believe in Jesus”

              “I’m breathing in Jesus, one breath at a time
              I’m breathing in Jesus; in his love, not mine
              Why think of tomorrow, just breath in today
              I’m breathing in Jesus, each step of the way

              Practice breath meditation: a loving-kindness meditation. Breath in slowly, hold the breath and then breath out slowly. Try this for an hour a day. Then you will know the presence of peace and compassion and will be better able to love others. If your “religion” is loving-kindness you will need no holy books, no religious institutions, nor any religious gurus to become compassionate and kind towards others, no matter what their religious beliefs are.

              My sleep is peaceful because I love other people and breath in Jesus and breathe out peace. I’m afraid it is you who is deceived by your Pentecostal gurus who interpret the bible for you, but you can overcome this deception by breathing in slowly and breathing out slowly.

              Like

              • VictorsCorner 31/10/2019 / 2:19 pm

                Religion saves no one. Faith in God through Jesus is what saves people, and that actually is the Only Way. That way of the Lord is what I am following. I am convinced it is the right way. Please come along if you will.

                Like

                • John Arthur 04/11/2019 / 10:32 am

                  I’m not into religion, but breath meditation. No religious gurus, no temples, and no holy books are required. Just breathe in slowly and breathe out slowly.

                  Like

                  • VictorsCorner 04/11/2019 / 10:58 am

                    That must be so boring. I prefer what I have – a personal relationship with God.

                    Like

                    • John Arthur 04/11/2019 / 11:57 am

                      To think it is boring, just shows me that you do not practice breath meditation. It is just so exhilarating, inspiring and ennobling. You need to try it.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 06/11/2019 / 3:48 am

                      “To which end?”

                      To find the “presence”. Some call it, him or her “God”, others just call it, him or her the “presence”

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 07/11/2019 / 11:21 pm

                      So you believe there is God after all?

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 08/11/2019 / 5:09 am

                      “So you believe that there is a God after all.”

                      No, but I do believe that there is a peaceful and compassionate presence which some call God but others simply call “the presence”. You need to practice breath meditation so that you can enjoy this presence. It (he or she) will help you to be kind to others than you already are (in spite of your brainwashing by your Pentecostal masters). Your are really a kind-hearted person, underneath it all, Victor.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 08/11/2019 / 7:39 pm

                      My kind heart is from God. I have not always been kind from the word go. But when I accepted Jesus Christ into my life, God gave me a new heart and spread His love in it. That’s the kind of experience I want you to have John. It’s better than your so-called breath meditation.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 09/11/2019 / 10:23 am

                      That you think that your so-called relationship with God is better than breath meditation is just your opinion. I happen to think that breath meditation is better. If you haven’t tried it, how do you know?

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 09/11/2019 / 11:31 am

                      Nothing greater than a relationship with the Creator of all the Universe. Nothing.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 10/11/2019 / 3:09 am

                      “There’s nothing greater than a relationship with the creator of the universe”.

                      Yes, but if no such creator exists, then you have an imaginary relationship. You offer no evidence for your creator. And you fail to show that Allah isn’t the creator rather than Yahweh.

                      Like

            • John Arthur 10/11/2019 / 4:49 am

              Well, I never stop talking about Jesus. He, and Buddha, are among my heroes. I love Jesus Christ and breathe in his breath and breathe out his compassion into the world around me. Can you say that you do this?

              Like

              • VictorsCorner 10/11/2019 / 11:10 pm

                It is one thing to talk about Jesus, it is another to accept Him as your Lord and personal Saviour. The latter is what you urgently need to do. And you don’t have all the time in the world to do it!

                Like

                • John Arthur 13/11/2019 / 12:16 am

                  If salvation (sozo = to save or to be made whole in Greek) is that which makes us whole, then it is love that makes us whole. Since I breath in peace and breath out compassion through a loving kindness meditation, I am being saved. I have been saved through Jesus’ and Buddha’s method of breath meditation. Love is saving me and it could save you as well.

                  The trouble is that the church introduced the devil’s concept of everlasting torture to scare people into the church by claiming that God would everlastingly burn people in hell. This monstrous doctrine doesn’t come from a God of love. No loving person would burn anyone.

                  The presence does not promote psychological torture like your Pentecostal mates but the presence promote tender compassion, healing-mercy and loving-kindness that is so uplifting, so inspiring, so encouraging and so ennobling that when you are in the presence you just want to love others and this presence helps you go into the world with love in your heart.

                  Like

                  • VictorsCorner 13/11/2019 / 8:43 am

                    You are not saved from eternal judgement except you believe in Jesus Christ. “There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”
                    ” Acts 4:12.

                    If the prospect of hell fire as the eternal dwelling place of those who reject God scare you like this, it should make you change. It is not about your accusations against the church. You are not helping yourself with all this vituperation against the God and His people.

                    Like

                    • John Arthur 13/11/2019 / 11:30 pm

                      God, if he exists, is pure unconditional love and hence could not have an eternal torture chamber. But the church’s key plank in its platform is the diabolical doctrine of hell by which it keeps its parishioners in line.

                      The church uses the bible as a weapon of oppression and brings out all the supposed doctrines on hell. Even Jesus is alleged to teach the monstrous concept, but Jesus who taught his disciples Buddha’s method of breath meditation did not teach hell. Jesus’ use of Gehenna (the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem) and judgement is related to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in CE 70.

                      Hence your idea that I ought to hold to your views of God to avoid hell as a terrorist camp after I die is unworthy of anyone who is compassionate and is no incentive to follow a God of compassion, Anyone who loves someone would not burn them. Hence God (if he exists) is not going to burn me.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 14/11/2019 / 7:33 am

                      I can’t help but think that you are really confused. Stop vacillating here and there.
                      It’s either you make up your mind about God and believe in Him or you forget it.

                      The church preaches a message of love to everyone who wants to hear. Even hellfire message is a fair warning, which is also a message of love.

                      It is not about what you or any skeptics think. If you want to escape the danger of hell fire, give your life to Jesus now. That’s the only way out.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 14/11/2019 / 11:39 am

                      So you say that the church preaches a message of love. Was the burning of over 100,000 witches promoted by the church leaders a message of love? Was the torture and burning of heretics at the stake promoted by the church a message of love? Is the promotion of the church of God burning people in hell forever a message of love? And didn’t the doctrine of hell create a church which produced these atrocities and gave their leaders hard hearts?

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:35 am

                      I have a different picture of the church. You can keep yours.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 15/11/2019 / 11:04 am

                      Victor,

                      You say that you have a different picture of the church and that I can keep
                      mine. Are you totally ignorant of what has happened in church history? You need to do more study, otherwise you will keep on holding to your church fantasies.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 4:10 pm

                      I have read a bit of church history. Unfortunately, people like you don’t know the difference bewteen church as religious setup and church as a body of believers in Christ. I speak of the latter and they would no such thing you referred to as what happened in church history. The real of church of has never been the persecutor. Rather it has always been at the receiving end of persecution, either presently or historically. You get the difference, John?

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 17/11/2019 / 3:34 am

                      Hi Victor,

                      You claim that the real church has a message of love and would not persecute people. John Calvin, a leading 16th. church reformer and one of the leaders of Protestantism, was a leading Evangelical Christian and claimed that the Holy Spirit indwelt him. He also claimed to be “born from above”.

                      Yet this same John Calvin (in the short time he was in the city of Geneva) had the authorities burn 34 witches at the stake. He also had Servetus burnt at the stake for heresy. He is one (like you) who claimed that the church as the body of Christ does not persecute. He simply believed that he was following the bible which commanded that witches should not live. he also believe that the bible taught that the death penalty should apply to heretics.

                      So are you telling me that this is not persecution by the church? The people of Geneva supported John Calvin in this persecution as did the church who all claimed to be born again.

                      Like

  10. John Arthur 31/10/2019 / 4:17 am

    Hi Victor,

    I’ve decided to abandon breath meditation and atheism.

    Jesus Christ, as witnessed to in the whole bible, is the one Word of God whom we are called to listen to and to joyfully obey in life and death. The bible is derivatively God’s Word in human words in history pointing us to the One who is the Word of God. The apostles (including Paul) are disciples him in life of Jesus and followed him in life and in death.

    May the triune God revealed in Jesus Christ and illumined to us by the Holy Spirit lead us day by day into a living relationship with the crucified and risen Messiah. Paul was not a lunatic and I have been grossly in error on that, on breath meditation and on atheism/agnosticism.

    May the living and true God, revealed in Jesus Christ and witnessed to by Moses, the prophets in the OT and by the apostles in the NT richly bless you.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 31/10/2019 / 2:25 pm

      “I’ve decided to abandon breath meditation and atheism.” Do you mean that, or you are just pulling my leg?

      The last comments you made are too good to be true coming from you. Please I need a confirmation that it was really you that typed those and that you meant them.

      Like

      • John Arthur 04/11/2019 / 3:15 am

        You guessed. I’m pulling your leg.

        Like

        • VictorsCorner 04/11/2019 / 9:51 am

          And that’s so sad. But don’t forget that God is still waiting for you. He is ready when you are.

          Like

          • John Arthur 04/11/2019 / 10:30 am

            I’ve found him (her or it) through breath meditation. I’ve experienced the peaceful presence.

            Like

              • John Arthur 04/11/2019 / 12:14 pm

                Some think that this peaceful presence is “God”, others call it Jesus, still others just call it the “presence”. Among Christian groups, the Quakers (who were a 17th C. Christian movement founded by George Fox) now have members who are Christians, others who are inspired by Buddhist writings and yet others who are atheists and agnostics.

                The Quakers wait upon “God” in the silence and many of them practice meditation: breathing in slowly, holding the breath and then breathing out slowly and, in silent Quaker meetings, this is usually done for the whole hour. They don’t get bored through their meditation, as you claim but EXPERIENCE the beautiful presence: one so kind, compassionate and peaceful.

                You, too, can meet the “presence” simply by choosing to do a loving-kindness meditation, whether it is inspired by Buddha or Jesus, and even if you were to become an atheist or agnostic.

                Like

                • VictorsCorner 05/11/2019 / 11:00 pm

                  Any one who truly knows that he has God will not want anything else.

                  Like

                  • John Arthur 06/11/2019 / 3:44 am

                    You mean, if you truly know God you wouldn’t want anything else other than breath meditation. Then, you would be following Jesus and Buddha?

                    Like

                    • VictorsCorner 07/11/2019 / 11:20 pm

                      I meant if you truly know God you wouldn’t want anything else, whatever name you call it.

                      Like

                  • John Arthur 08/11/2019 / 5:02 am

                    No-one truly knows whether God exists or not. You only believe that God exists. The “presence” exists but whether this is God who is external to oneself or simply something that occurs in one’s head or heart without God existing, neither you not I knows.

                    Like

                    • John Arthur 08/11/2019 / 1:08 pm

                      Hi Victor,

                      I’ve provided a link to Christian Atheism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

                      You can be a Christian and an atheist. You only have to follow the humanistic teachings of Jesus. All that stuff about invisible beings in the bible is ancient world material that is no longer relevant to living in the 21st century.

                      Just love other human beings!

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 08/11/2019 / 7:36 pm

                      Speak for yourself, John. We know God exists. He is the Creator of all things. You are not here my accident. God made you.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 09/11/2019 / 11:37 am

                      Hi Victor,

                      There’s nothing laughable about Christian atheism. What is laughable is how Fundamentalist Christians hold to all the fairy stories in the bible, as if these stories are real. The trouble is that many of the fairy stories are not benign but vicious and immoral stories written by barbaric and ignorant savages.

                      Christian atheism treats these myths as myths and only holds to those teachings of Jesus that are humane. All the rest is ditched. This includes all the fairy stories in the bible whether they are benign or barbaric.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 09/11/2019 / 2:50 pm

                      The Bible is a fairly tale only in your imagination and in those of people like you whom satan has blinded their eyes to prevent them from knowing the truth and coming to the knowledge of God.
                      Those of us who know and believe in God accept the Bible for what it is: the inspired word of God.

                      I said christian atheism is laughable because, anyone who is truly a christian knows that he or she cannot be an atheist at the same time.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 10/11/2019 / 3:15 am

                      It’s not just in my imagination that the bible is a fairy tale. There are many Christian scholars who believe that the bible contains myths. Why repudiate much of biblical scholarship without showing why? You seem to think that asserting something is true makes it true.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 10/11/2019 / 11:13 pm

                      Those who call the Bible a myth, are either lying or are in ignorance. The Bible is what it is: the inspired word of God, take it or leave.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 14/11/2019 / 12:00 pm

                      No-one says that the whole bible is myth, but there are many myths in the bible. Many of the OT stories are myths. Miracles are myth so both the OT and NT have many myths. It’s not just me that is saying this, but many Christian scholars. These scholars are not lying or trying to deceive anyone but presenting the truth to the churches, which you refuse to recognize.

                      The bible is not the inspired Word of God as you claim but is a book written by ancient savages who created god in their own likeness.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:33 am

                      I leave you to your darkened understanding. Neither you nor those ignorant people you referred to have what it takes to discredit the Bible.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 14/11/2019 / 1:07 pm

                      Hi Victor,

                      You say that the bible is the inspired Word of God. Well, if God exists (which you haven’t established), then the best we could possibly say is that the bible is a fallible witness to Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. Only those parts of the bible which are loving could be of God. All the rest needs to go in the rubbish bin.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:31 am

                      You say what you don’t know and you criticise what you don’t understand. You may want to focus on your atheism and leave the Bible alone, because you are saying pathetic things.

                      Like

  11. John Arthur 14/11/2019 / 1:29 pm

    “you are in the breath, since the breath of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the breath of Christ does not belong to him,” (Rom.8:9)

    Although Paul suffered from delusional visions and spoke in gibberish (tongues) more than all the rest of them, he wasn’t a complete fanatic. He did practice breath meditation and wrote the great chapter on love (1 Cor. 13). This was his saving grace . This shows that religious nutters can do some good.

    Victor, I am not including you among the nutters but someone who is kind. It’s a pity you hang on to the barbaric bible under the delusion that it is some inspired Word of God.

    Paul was not an eloquent speakers but he did practice breath meditation. He was following Jesus and Buddha.

    Like

    • John Arthur 14/11/2019 / 1:32 pm

      He was following Jesus and Buddha on this aspect of deep breathing but he tried to create a different Christian religion than the one Jesus began.

      Like

      • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:27 am

        You are not even qualified to say that, because you don’t even understand the the message of Jesus. If you did, you would know there is God in the first place.

        If you believe in Buddha, good for you. But we recognise Jesus as the Way – the only way – to God. You can try to disprove that, but that will be a waste of time.

        Like

        • John Arthur 15/11/2019 / 12:18 pm

          Breath meditation on loving kindness can help everyone to become more peaceful and compassionate persons in their relationships with others. Perhaps, I’d better forget the bible as there are over 40,000 different interpretations of this supposedly inspired book.

          No religious gurus, temples, churches, mosques or synagogues nor any holy books are required to practice loving-kindness. Just breathe in peace and breath out kindness.

          You are a kind hearted person, Victor, and breath meditation could help you to become even kinder. May compassion and healing-mercy envelop you, surround you, inspire you and lift up you and all you meet.

          Like

          • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 4:12 pm

            I have received the love of God in me because I have received Christ into me. My goal is to become more and more like Christ.

            As for the Bible, people like you who don’t know God would never understand it. That’s where your problem lies.

            Like

            • John Arthur 17/11/2019 / 12:26 pm

              Well, if people don’t know God can never understand the bible, why is your god going to judge us for something we can never understand? Is your god that unjust that he would burn and torture people in hell forever for something that they can never understand? isn’t that where your god’s problem lies. You’ve made him into a moral monster.

              Like

              • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 3:00 am

                First things first, believe first and the rest will follow.

                Like

                • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 4:22 am

                  In other words, what you are saying to me is : “be gullible and believe everything in the bible”. Gullibility is no path to truth.

                  Like

                  • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 10:38 am

                    It is not gullibility. It is called faith. I guess you will have a problem with that.

                    Like

                    • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 10:57 am

                      So is faith believing that something is true when there is no evidence for that belief? How does simply believing without evidence make it true?

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 11:09 am

                      Faith is believing something is true based on the word of God. The word is the required evidence. Don’t blame me if that’s too much for you to grasp.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 11:33 am

                      You say that faith is believing something based on the Word of God. But you haven’t demonstrated that there is any Word of God. You claim that the bible is the Word of God but merely asserting that it is so, doesn’t make it so. Your whole reasoning seems to be based on a circular argument.

                      Like

    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:29 am

      Your version of Paul is obviously different from mine. Let’s rest it that way please.

      Like

  12. John Arthur 15/11/2019 / 5:55 am

    Hi Victor,

    Paul might not have been eloquent, but his love chapter in 1 Cor.13 is good. He says, ‘If I speak with the gibber jabber of men and angels but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging symbol.

    But in the next chapter he claims to speak in jibber jabber more than all other Christians. He goes psychotic.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 15/11/2019 / 8:22 am

      You are mixing things up again. Paul was effective in his writings, even though he was not so verbally eloquent. That point was very clear in my post.

      Yes, Paul wrote the love chapter to emphasise the importance of doing the things we do in love, not to undermine speaking in tongues.
      You can’t fault his claim of speaking in tongues., He spoke it well and he spoke in in context. That’s the point you failed to grab: he didn’t discourage speaking in tongues but rather that it should not be misused or misplaced.

      Like

  13. John Arthur 17/11/2019 / 3:47 am

    Well, whether Paul spoke gibberish well or not is irrelevant. The fact is that he spoke gibberish.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 3:03 am

      What you call gibberish, we call it speaking in other tongues. Only believers in Christ can speak it. People like you can’t. Sorry

      Like

      • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 4:25 am

        Do you consider the Mormons to be Christian? many of them speak in what you call “tongues”. Most Christian groups consider the Mormons to be a false cult.

        Like

        • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 10:37 am

          I’m not here to talk about them. You should be most considered about your soul. Except you believe you will perish.

          Like

          • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 10:53 am

            Yes, but you said that only believers in Christ can speak in tongues. Many Mormons speak in tongues so you must be saying that they are believers in Christ. But they are considered by many Christians to be a false cult.

            Like

            • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 11:11 am

              Even the devil speaks in tongues. But that’s not a heavenly tongue. Only those who are believers in Christ speak the genuine tongue. It is part of the signs of being a believer.

              Like

              • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 11:23 am

                So if someone speaks in tongues in a Pentecostal church, how do you know that they are speaking in a “heavenly tongue” and not in tongues “inspired by the devil”?

                Like

              • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 12:25 pm

                What signs of being a believer?

                Like

                • VictorsCorner 18/11/2019 / 2:14 pm

                  Please stop feigning ignorance now. Speaking in tongues of course.

                  Like

                  • John Arthur 18/11/2019 / 11:56 pm

                    Do you mean this:

                    “These signs shall follow those that believe: In my name, they shall cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes on their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:17-18).

                    Like

                    • VictorsCorner 19/11/2019 / 8:56 pm

                      I confess that you know some things in the Bible . The only sad thing is that you have not allowed what you have read from it to impact your life.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 20/11/2019 / 4:56 am

                      You now say that I do know some things in the bible. But you said that I am incapable of understanding anything in the bible because you claim that I do not know God. So apparently people can understand some things in the bible without knowing God.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 20/11/2019 / 7:38 pm

                      You understanding is incomplete until you acknowledge there is God and also give your life to Him. The word of God is spirit and life, not just the letters you are used to.

                      Like

                  • John Arthur 19/11/2019 / 1:03 am

                    You do know that the long ending of Mark’s Gospel is not in the earliest and best Greek manuscripts. Therefore Jesus mentioned nothing about tongues being a sign that would follow believers. The best manuscripts end at 16:8.

                    But many Pentecostal crackpots take up serpents and some of them get bitten and die.

                    Modern speaking in tongues have been found by linguistic experts to be merely the speaking of nonsense syllables. Too many Pentecostals claim to speak in heavenly tongues but are actually speaking jibber jabber.

                    Like

                    • VictorsCorner 19/11/2019 / 9:08 pm

                      You are entitled to your own opinion. Unfortunately it is highly flawed. Of course Jesus talked about Speaking in tongues. How could you claim otherwise?

                      Haven’t you noticed that all your attempt to discredit the Bible has failed? And I dare say it will continue to fail.

                      Speaking in tongues is like a pearl of high value, you don’t cast it to swines. It is a gift from God to believers, something an atheist like you can never comprehend.

                      Only ignorance could have made you call speaking in tongues ‘jibber jabber’. My heart goes out to you in pity. I wish you knew better.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 20/11/2019 / 4:51 am

                      Hi Victor,

                      The pearl of high value is not speaking in tongues. The reign of heaven is likened to a merchant in search of fine pearls who, on finding a pearl of great value, sells all that he has and buys the field that it is in (Mat:13: 44-45). Jesus said nothing about tongues being the pearl of great value. Heaven’s reign is compassion and it is compassion that is the pearl of great value. Remember, Jesus taught his disciples Buddha’s method of breath meditation and it is in the silence, when they breathed in peace and breathed out compassion that they were born form above, by being “born of the breath”.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 20/11/2019 / 7:36 pm

                      Please stop insulting Jesus. The gospel Jesus preached is from God, not from Buddha.

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 20/11/2019 / 5:32 am

                      Hi Victor,

                      The long ending of Mark’s Gospel (16:9-20) was added onto this Gospel late in the 2nd. century CE and hence was not park of the original Gospel of Mark. Thus Jesus did not talk at all about speaking in tongues.

                      If we assume that the long ending of Mark is genuine, why is it that most of you Pentecostals don’t practice snake handling as a sign that would follow “them that believe”? If you were to drink poison, wouldn’t you call the doctor immediately or call for an ambulance to take you to hospital?

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 20/11/2019 / 8:15 pm

                      I wouldn’t tell you what I would do because you won’t believe. Besides, you don’t tempt God by handling snake or drinking poison just like that. But if it happens that such happens due to no fault of the believer, God has assured us of divine protection. Take the example of Paul, he encountered snake but sustained to harm. “But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.” Acts 28:5,

                      Like

                    • John Arthur 21/11/2019 / 3:27 am

                      Hi Victor,

                      The long ending of Mark says “They will take up serpents”. The “They” in this passage is the “believers”. The verb “to take up” is in the future indicative active in the Greek. This indicates that the subject of the verb “The believers” will undertake the action of taking up serpents.

                      In Acts a snakes latches onto the hand of Paul. Paul did not take the serpent up. It was the snake which latched onto Paul. He did not take it up.

                      Like

                    • VictorsCorner 21/11/2019 / 8:05 am

                      So why was he not hurt by the snake? You wouldn’t know anything about divine protection, would you?

                      Like

  14. John Arthur 21/11/2019 / 4:09 am

    Hi Victor,

    Paul was not eloquent in his speech as you rightly said. He was one of the early Pentecostals. He was baptized in the Holy Spirit ( Acts 9). Later he spoke in his heavenly prayer language. If he was “clothed with power from on high”, who am I to say that he was psycho? “…those who speak in an unknown tongue do not speak to other people, but to God for nobody understands them…. Those who speak in a tongue build themselves up.”, (I Cor.14:2-5).

    He later says, “if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive. What shall I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also.” (I Cor. 14:14-15).

    I think that I had better become a Pentecostal again. I’m going to pray with my mind as well as with my spirit, by praying in English and in tongues. I need to be rebaptized (or refilled) in the Holy Spirit and turn from my evil ways. Jesus is Lord and only Jesus! He alone is the saviour of the world. I need to give up breath meditation and rely on the God-breathed biblical witness to Jesus.

    Like

    • VictorsCorner 21/11/2019 / 8:08 am

      I wouldn’t know if you are pulling my legs again. But what you just said is the side of you you should identify with.

      Like

      • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 5:53 am

        Hi Victor,

        I’m closing down the blog that I have just started. The OT is full of violence. Although much of the NT is good, the book of Revelation is another book saturated with violence. Speaking jibber jabber that occurs in Pentecostal and Charismatics can’t help anyone. Only breath meditation is able to help me to become a more peaceful and compassionate person.

        Like

        • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 9:13 am

          If you would just believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal, it will remove much of this confusion you seem to be grappling with.

          Like

  15. John Arthur 21/11/2019 / 4:34 am

    ” Let the fire fall, let the fire fall,
    Let the fire from heaven fall,
    We are waiting and expecting,
    Now in faith dear Lord we call;
    Let the fire fall, let the fire fall,
    On Thy promise we depend;
    For the glory of Thy presence,
    let the Pentecostal fire descend”.
    ,

    Like

    • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 5:54 am

      This so-called “fire” is bogus.

      Like

      • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 9:15 am

        It is not a literal fire. It is cry for the touch of heaven that brings empowerment and passion.

        Like

  16. John Arthur 21/11/2019 / 4:37 am

    ” Lord, take my tongue and let it praise you. Take my unknown tongue and guard it from evil. May it lift up you in adoration, praise and thanksgiving, in Jesus’ name, Amen.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • VictorsCorner 21/11/2019 / 8:12 am

      John, I need to be sure you are the one posting these latest comments.

      Like

      • John Arthur 22/11/2019 / 12:20 pm

        Hi Victor,

        I have closed down my previous blog and am beginning a new one: https://anoldruggedcross.wordpress.com/ . I have titled it Let the Fire Fall: A Charismatic and Pentecostal Christocentic Theology of the Word of God.

        I am planning to do devotional readings on the NT and you are most welcome to come and visit this new blog and make any comments.

        Praise the Lord!

        Like

        • VictorsCorner 22/11/2019 / 4:28 pm

          Doesn’t quite sound like you are deconverting from atheism to God. I’m I missing something?

          Like

          • John Arthur 23/11/2019 / 6:37 am

            What makes you think that I am not deconverting from atheism to God?

            Liked by 1 person

            • VictorsCorner 23/11/2019 / 8:50 am

              If you have, say so directly and unashamedly. I just need to be sure about it.

              So i ask, Do you mean you now believe in God and has now accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Saviour? Forgive my seeming skepticism.

              Like

              • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 5:58 am

                You were right to be sceptical!

                Like

                • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 9:20 am

                  As skeptical as I was, it is my wish for you to acknowledge Jesus as your Lord and personal Saviour. Without that, you are utterly hopeless.

                  Like

          • John Arthur 24/11/2019 / 4:51 am

            Hi Victor,

            I’ve changed the title of my new blog to “Karl Barth’s Church Dogmatics for Charismatics and Pentecostals.” Karl Barth was the greatest theologian of the 20th Century and I am doing devotional readings on his works with scriptural backing. I’ve posted my first post which is introductory and is titled ‘Jesus Christ is the One Word of God’.

            Liked by 1 person

            • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 9:12 am

              Noted. May you find what is best for you, both in time and in eternity, along the way.

              Like

    • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 5:55 am

      What was I thinking of? It’s utterly ridiculous.

      Like

      • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 9:19 am

        You have to come to terms with that part of you that posted “Lord take my tongue…” and stop being enslaved by that side of you that continues to make you deny all that is called God. It will bring stability to your life.
        Right now you are like a paper boat on a might ocean – weightless, restless and hopeless.

        Like

        • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 10:46 am

          You might well be right, but I don’t know. Maybe, I won’t close down my new blog but will redo the posts with an emphasis on what Karl Barth said in his Church Dogmatics and change the title to “Devotional readings from Karl Barth’s Church Dogmatics.”. I might regain faith in Jesus. I just don’t know.

          Like

          • VictorsCorner 25/11/2019 / 10:53 am

            The journey can begin now. You don’t have to delay it anymore.

            Like

    • John Arthur 25/11/2019 / 5:57 am

      What was I thinking? This is utter nonsense!

      Like

      • VictorsCorner 04/12/2019 / 6:07 pm

        You need to come to be terms with your Maker. Until then, life will not make sense to you.

        Like

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